Hill describes Brian Rolek as "the least experienced birder in our group". On their first day in their super-secret 2-square-mile spot, not long after Cornell's Arkansas announcement, Brian saw an Ivory-bill. Later, on the first day scouting another spot 10 miles to the north, Brian saw another Ivory-bill.
To me, Hill comes across as your nice-guy neighbor who's just not overly-endowed with common sense.
Geoff--for months on end, in a 2-square-mile area, people keep glimpsing Ivory-bills; people (and the ARUs) keep hearing Ivory-bills; yet no one ever gets a good look at a perched Ivory-bill?! Does that really make any sense to you?
Hill talks about his five-person team, but note that his web site talks about 14 visitors to the area:
Through July 2006, nine of fourteen visitors who spent more than 48 hours at the site detected Ivory-billed Woodpeckers.I'd like to know more about those other visitors and what they "detected".
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On their first day in their super-secret 2-square-mile spot, not long after Cornell's Arkansas announcement, Brian saw an Ivory-bill.
As I recall, Rolek was the dude who "determined" from a satellite image where the prime spot for finding IBWOs would be. And again, as I recall from one of the news stories, the first "sighting" occurred within ONE HOUR of searching at the spot.
Like most bad field biologists that severely overestimate their ability to tell size without a good reference. There field notes are full of size reference. As if what they saw was too big for Pilieated.
Some of this bias seems to be from there own misinformation. For instance, Hill states that the wingspan of IBWO is 20% bigger than Pileated. Well maybe it approaches that for largest IBWO compared to the smallest PIWO, but the average is much much less.
But again, just a bias they have. You can't tell in the field without a reference anyway. But when they "see a big" woodpecker they immediately bias to IBWO.
I seriously think that some of their flyby sightings are of male Anhingas. They are larger than Pileateds, have white in the upperwings, fly directly like a loon, have pale bills, can show white lines on the neck, and live in swamps. Look at the long tail in the 27 May sketch. Look at the long body, neck, tail on Rolek's Thunderbird/Pterodactyl on p. 5 (would be great for a T-shirt).
Other sightings are surely of Pileateds but to be safe I would file them all under bird sp.
From Tom's prior post and sorely overlooked:
"The past search season had 22 full-time staffers, 112 volunteers and 10 agency/NGO personnel."
Referring to the CLO 2005-2006 search in Arkansas and God only knows how many ARUs and automated cameras they set up.
This was one river system out of hundreds and maybe thousands.
To Cyberthrush, Cinclodes, Mary Scott/disciples, Bird Chick, Minnie Me, Laura, PD, Pullian, Bird Forum, et al.
Doesn't this tell you anything? How many millions of dollars and how many people will it ever take to find conclusive evidence?
How many searches? How many rivers and streams?
You say we will never be satisfied with dare I say "the evidence",
We say your evidence to put it mildly is inconclusive and/or lacking in substantiation.
This search will last through this eternity and the next one.
More blurry videos, fleeting glimpses, double knockies, etc, etc.
Tom, get your children ready to follow in your footsteps.
amy lester wrote: "As I recall, Rolek was the dude who "determined" from a satellite image where the prime spot for finding IBWOs would be."
Amy, it was Tyler Hicks according to the Anniston Star article. It doesn't matter though. The Auburn team was clearly motivated by the Arkansas reports to look for Ivory-bills. So this whole new fiasco stems from those misleading and erroneous claims.
A narrow, secretive methodology took hold again in Florida. The right approach would have been to consult widely with a range of trusted experts right from the start. Neither Cornell nor Auburn did that in any effective way. They didn't do it because they wanted the discovery to be their own. If they really had protection of Ivory-bills in mind, then they would not have succumbed to this selfish instinct and gotten everyone who could have helped protect the birds on the spot immediately. Territorial, all-notes-and-and-photos-are-ours, only-we-know-what's-right--that was Cornell. I don't know what or if Hill et al. were thinking.
What happened to working collaboratively (really, not for show) and striving for the advancement of the ornithological community? What happened to working in the best interests of the birds?
The wingspan of an Ivorybill is about 20% bigger than a SOUTHERN Pileated which is smaller (15-16" long and thus smaller wingspan) than a NORTHERN Pileated (18-19")
Wingspan Ivorybill= ~30-32"
So. Pileated= ~24-26"
what about the wingspan of an Anhinga male?
Has anyone actually read / know about Jackson's opinions about this Florida report. I believe he used the words "very exciting, but not conclusive" and he was consulted and saw the data during the months before release!!!!!
How could ANY good birder mistake an Anhinga for an Ivorybill, it's to big and has a MUCH longer (snakelike) neck (and bill).
"The wingspan of an Ivorybill is about 20% bigger than a SOUTHERN Pileated which is smaller "
I am talking about the Southern Pileated. Smallest 214 to 220 mm for smallest female and smallest male for Pileated, respectively. And 262 to 263 mm for any IBWO.
So my point was that only by assuming that you always see smallest PIWO and any IBWO do you even approach 18%. So in practice you are really looking at 10% or so.
But 10% or 20% doesn't really matter, the point is that every field birder first learns that size appearance is misleading unless you have a reference. And in the field, you often do not have a reference.
But Hill is already biased to the "fact" that PIWO is a whopping 20% bigger. He has a bad case of bias.
I just have to wonder why why please tell me why skeptics lay waste to people whenever they say they have seen or have evidence that Ivorybills survive. Do people actually want this bird to be extinct, after all it was man's greed that has put the bird in this situation in the first place.
And the maximum length that a Pileated wing can be in the South is about 11" whereas an adult ivorybill is at minimum 13"
11+11+4 (body width)= 26"
13+13+4 perhaps bigger = 30-31"
That's CLOSER to 20% than 10%. Someone familiar with a Pileated should be able to tell if their seeing a bigger bird, flasing white and not black, and having a different flight style.
...just to quickly clarify...I meant to put the word "wing" as a qualifier on my figures for my proportional differences...as opposed to wingspan.
"How could ANY good birder..."
True, but these are not good birders as can readily be seen by reading their field notes and looking at their sketches. As was noted by John Wall all who see IBWOs are dudes and stringers. Rolek is clearly in the dude category whereas Hicks is
an "experienced birder" and therefore a stringer. Would a good birder field sketch a bird showing an angle obviously not seen?
The looks were really brief, especially the MANY entirely without bins, and I really think they could easily have strung some Anhingas as IBWOs in addition to Pileateds.
We skeptics "lay waste" to IBWO stringers because none of their evidence ever stands up to scrutiny, because their crying wolf erodes good will towards science and conservation, and because they divert attention and resources that should be devoted to the millions of species that actually do still exist.
What is with the reliance on flight style? Have people read up on the background info?
From Tanner:
"Much has been written and said on how the Ivory-bill flies directly and straight while the Pileated's flight undulates, but I have frequently seen Pileateds fly directly, in no way different from the flight of the larger bird. In fact both birds vary considerably in their manner of flight."
Flight style is not a reliable "fieldmark".
I know Cybercrow and like-minded folk are fond of downplaying Tanner's observations (his observations certainly were of a small sample) thinking that they might have better insight into the IBWO, but at least Tanner definitely had extended observations of multiple IBWO, and, shocking as it may seem, was even able to photograph/film these super-elusive birds using 1930's technology.
"Someone familiar with a Pileated should be able to tell if their seeing a bigger bird"
That is the whole point. You can't!
Why can't you? Because you don't ever see a PIWO flying beside a IBWO. Do you see the problem now? Are you a birder with sufficient experience?
Really you never see a PIWO flying beside anything that will ever let you see a 12 to 15 to 20% difference. HEll, sometimes even 50% can fool people. This is why their sighting notes are driving bird records people nuts. It's just useless as a verification of the sighting.
"I just have to wonder why why please tell me why skeptics lay waste to people whenever they say they have seen or have evidence that Ivorybills survive"
Because they are mistaken. Because it is extinct.
"Do people actually want this bird to be extinct,..."
No.
I just have to wonder why why please tell me why skeptics lay waste to people whenever they say they have seen or have evidence that Ivorybills survive.
I can't speak for others but I am interested in minimizing the dissemination of false and/or misleading information to and by our nation's media, period. If it's any comfort to you, I don't limit my scorn to peddlers of IBWO mythology.
Do people actually want this bird to be extinct,
I hate to break it to you, my friend, but the proper time for folks to be asking that question in earnest was 75-100 years ago.
In 2006, it hardly matters to the IBWO whether you or I want it to be alive.
Although it takes a while to dig through all the pompous nonsense spouted by certain believers on BirdForum (hi, minnie me)there seems to be an undercurrent of scepticism about the Florida reports from some of the more fervent believers. Not cinclodes of course, he now seems desperate to hang onto anyones shirt tails if he thinks it will make his sightings more credible (here's a clue mike; it won't).
Is this undercurrent because some of them are worried that Hill et al are about to p1ss on their bonfire and obtain definite proof before they do? (I wouldn't worry guys; they're not, but neither are you......).
Perhaps it isn't about the birds, more about the masturbation of their own egos.
I just listened to that interview. First, Dr. Hill said the bird was maybe 20% larger. He wasn't sure of the percentage. It was the interviewer who made a big deal about the size of the bird, and even said that the Pileated looks like a prehistoric bird, a description usually reserved for the Great Blue Heron. So, let's be fair & not harp on the size difference.
What I found most amazing is the fact that 2 people lived in that area for 4 months and went out every day looking for this bird and changing batteries in their recorders, yet didn't come home with more/better sightings. They slept outdoors and could hear everything going on around them all day and night. With all those double-knocks and kents recorded in the exact area they were living in, it seems incredible that the birds were able to hide so well. THEY LIVED WITH THE BIRDS FOR 4 MONTHS, 24/7!
It seems funny to think of a Blue Jay sneaking into the area and making kent noises and then escaping undetected, yet this is pretty close to what they're claiming the Ivory-billeds did.
Anonymous said: And the maximum length that a Pileated wing can be in the South is about 11" whereas an adult ivorybill is at minimum 13" ...
but Anonymous has not measured a specimen from the "current" southern IBWO population ... and so cannot know the size of same!
I think I've figured this out! I'm sure this has occurred to others and maybe someone has already posted this theory here (it's soooo hard to keep up) but here goes...
This is all a big PR campaign orchestrated by Pileated Woodpeckers. Think about it, without the Ivorybill, who would pay much attention to Pileateds? Birders see a large black & white woodpecker, tick PIWO, and say "Been there, done that!" and they're off. But add IBWO back into the mix and all of a sudden any PIWO can make even the most jaded birder's heart go pitter-patter. Now I'm not claiming that PIWO are painting their bills or bleaching their secondaries because that would clearly be unethical and I think PIWO are above that. But who's to say that they didn't get the word out to their compadres that when you see birders, fly away directly so they can only see your aft-end, skip the lazy undulating crap and put your heart into it, and suppress that instinctive urge to call out. Maybe it's a little unethical but if birders/ornithologists are that gullible they kind of get what they deserve. And who can fault the PIWO for wanting a little more attention... and probably more than a few yucks?
OK OK... so we're all skeptics. Great. These people aren't seeing IBWOs. Awesome.
What, then, is making those sounds?
What bird, then, is "unidentifiable" to more than 5 experienced birders?
Even if the bird they're confused about isn't the thing making the noises (and even if it's not an IBWO) I'm pretty curious to find out what they're seeing/hearing.
BTW, the way I understand it, IBWO prefer old growth forests, i.e.: BIG TREES and would therefore be perching a helluva way up there. Also, if people haven't seen them for this many years, do you think perhaps they've been selected for secrecy and are trying to avoid being seen by hunters? Just a thought...
"So, let's be fair & not harp on the size difference."
But that's just the point. If it's fair for Hill et al to use size in their field notes inappropriately then it's not only fair but a duty for field birders to point out the problems with such notes.
One last time, size is not a definitive and often is a misleading indicator for identifing birds in the field. Esp. is seperating similarly sized species that look-alike.
Anhingas fly straight, look prehistoric, and are obviously larger than Pileateds. Review the notes, sketches, and interview and see for yourself that Anhinga really is a strong contender. They even have ivory bills!
Woodpeckers are conspicuous diurnal birds and the idea that they would yield only brief glimpses if present is ludicrous. Shame on the CLO and American ornithologists in general for not admitting this.
No, wait a minute I've really got it figured out now!
I really should have picked up on this earlier. The alien! That's got to be it! We've been thinking its just a passive observer of our human misadventures, cute little kneep-kneeping soul, but I'm now convinced the alien is much more devious and a great practical joker. Clearly it has been sharing its other-worldly stealth technology with the IBWO. I always wondered how these large dramatic birds, that must have one heck of an appetite, are cruising around through the swamp so stealthfully that people are only getting occasional fleeting glimpses. I mean if you were a nocturnal mammal skulking around on the ground at night that's one thing but its hard to skulk when you're flying about trying to make a grub-eating living. Add alien stealth technology, problem solved! Alien you are wicked!
We do not interfere with other bird life forms.
It is the prime directive.
Kneep....kneep.....
What, then, is making those sounds?
There is no reason why anybody should care about what is making those sounds. The goons who did that research could have given those 11,500 hours to people and had them search for imprints resembling the word "Satan" cried out by a little girl at 50 yards and then we'd have a REAL mystery!!!
MOO HOO HOO HAA HAA!!!!!!
What bird, then, is "unidentifiable" to more than 5 experienced birders?
What large noisy bird is unphotographable by a team of "professionals" who claim to be surrounded by them?
Even if the bird they're confused about isn't the thing making the noises (and even if it's not an IBWO) I'm pretty curious to find out what they're seeing/hearing.
That's because you're stupid.
There. I said it.
So you don't interfere with other bird life forms? Dang, I thought I was on to something with the alien stealth technology. I am truly baffled then how IBWO could do it. Got to be the PIWO PR campaign thang. PIWO you are wicked!
P.S. So did I read that right, you're an alien bird life form? Cooool!
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