A comment here suggests that IBWO(s) may be claimed in the Florida panhandle along the Choctawhatchee River near the Roaring Cutoff and Morrison Springs.
A look at a map here suggests that the Roaring Cutoff area is not very remote, with a cluster of buildings about a half-mile away.
Lots of nearby roads are also visible on this map, with one not much more than 600 yards away from the "Roaring Cutoff" area.
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Amazingly, considering that the IBWO's live in such "unremote" places, we've still not seen a useable photo or video. Not to mention that nearby folks seem to have missed the birds for a few generations.
Ok, the good old argument again that IBWOs could only have survived in REMOTE areas.
It seems the key question is not "Is it remote?" but
"Is there something interesting for birders to draw them to that particular area?"
or
"Are the inhabitants of those 5 to 6 houses birders?"
or
"Would surviving IBWOs have a reason to fly along or accross the road that runs next to the river and if they ever did, would the drivers seeing them be birders that are able to identify an IBWO in flight?"
And so on and so on.
Even though the TBs are talking bullshit when they say IBWOs are "extra shy" by now (remarkable, because most claimed observations were of birds flushed or even watched at distances of 15 to 50 meters ... pretty close encounters for an incredibly extra shy dark matter typ of bird - couldn't resist, the dark matter comment was way too excellent to not mention it), the skeptics are also not very credible when they say the species could only have survived undetected in remote areas and that any record is bound to be fake when there's any sign of human interference within miles.
It's the HABITAT that counts. Provided the habitat is excellent, I am sure surviving IBWOs would NOT mind a highway 600 yards away from their nesting hole or a few houses scattered here and there. They haven't turned into ghostly phantom-woodpeckers! If they are still around, they'll be ordinary wild birds doing whatever ordinary wild birds do and reacting the way ordinary wild birds react.
Come on, Tom, estimate for yourself: how incredibly disturbing is a highway when you're 600 yards away from it in a dense forest? Apart from a distant humming noise (that might as well be the wind in the leaves), would you actually NOTICE the highway if you were there birding?
Even though I remain skeptic about the survival of the IBWO, I think people claiming it is possible the species went undetected (wait, make that unconfirmed) for a few decades have a few good arguments on their side!
A few houses and a highway don't make it LESS likely that the records could possibly be correct! Let's see the evidence!
Sh-ugar, sorry: extra long smelly blather again from
Mr. German
(Yepp, that's me, Mr. German...)
Maybe the skeptics never really SAID this but many many comments were/are strongly SUGGESTIVE, take a look e.g. at Ken Phillips' recent comment:
"Amazingly, considering that the IBWO's live in such "unremote" places, we've still not seen a useable photo or video. Not to mention that nearby folks seem to have missed the birds for a few generations."
I just don't find it THAT amazing (if it is true), and the fact that people/skeptics DO and put a lot of emphasis on these things is strongly suggestive that they find these records harder to believe than records from remote places. And I don't think this is justified.
How often has Ken Phillips actually been along that river for a few days with a camera or how many birders reading this blog have been there many many times and never seen a thing that resembled an IBWO and how often have you achieved a record shot of a flying woodpecker from your car while driving along a highway at 50 miles and hour?
And regarding the rest of your comment: I find many things very odd about the IBWO story. It seems the whole issue is more about not losing one's face, personal vanity, making money selling books and souvenirs and being right and proving the others wrong than about a scientific process to determine if a species is still extant or not.
Very strange world we live in...
Cheers from the other side (of the Atlantic, that is...),
Mr. German
As a forester, a timber producer, and a conservationist, I do think one thing is missing from this argument.
People do not understand the complete harvesting of this country by our very busy forefathers. Almost all virgin forests were cut by the 1930's. Wood was the major building material and the major fuel source. For all intents and purposes the cutting was complete. And the remnants are rather small national parks, forests, or state parks.
The area of Morrison Springs and Roaring cutoff and infact that entire river system was completely cut to the ground. It is second growth cyprus etc. Nice growth now but not at the time that the IBWO would have needed it.
And finally, the IBWO was apparently an obligate forager on old growth. This is another fact that people don't seem to realize. "Obligate" in ornithology means.....it's exinct!!
By this time in the Cold Fusion story, the principals have all gone to France to continue their research.
At least metaphorically, I think this story has gone to France.
Morrison Springs, I know thee well
Scuba diving there has been swell
But now you will be off limits
And we locals will have no benefits
From these reports of Lord God Bird
(even if it’s only reported heard!)
we are just simple folk
who do not deserve this yolk
Lord, make these weird yuppies go away
Or at least make them these rules obey
One, leave the trot lines alone
Two, don’t report any buried bones
Amen
Well, yes, there might be IBWOs in France as well, but the stronghold of a purely melanistic population remains in Germany! We call it "Black Woodpecker", but of course, that's just to keep American tourists away for the sake of conserving this huge population. Smarter than calling it "Elvis", ey?
Mr. German
*If* IBWOs still exist, they will have to be in "unremote" areas... I don't think there is a genuinely remote area left in the South! So no need to belabor that point.
More importantly is the question "have these people who are claiming 9 pairs (or whatever) got documentation?" If they don't, assuming they have spent some time looking, then I would have to be highly suspicious of the reports.
At this point, there is a pattern forming and it doesn't take a skeptic to see that those who make the claims simply can't seem to produce. Do we have to start a whole new branch of ornithology and conservation for species that can only be observed by their gravity wells?
My Two Cents
Ok, I am not trying to play TB here, but I was wondering about the comment on forestry:
What technique was used back then when the forests of the South were harvested/ clear cut?
I suppose it was mostly done from ships along the river or by building roads/tracks into the swamps. I also suppose most of the (presumably huge) trunks were pulled out of the swamps by horses or was there any efficient machinery involved?
Now, from a TB point of view: is it not possible that some of the swamps that are said to be so incredibly unaccessable today were just about as inaccessable back then: too far off the main rivers to reach by boat/ship but still too swampy to get to by building a road? In these areas, could it not have been possible that economically (!) the work required to clear cut these areas was worth more than the lumber one was able to gain there making these areas economically not interesting/ rewarding?
That's an honest question and I really would be interested to know: how -technically- were those forests of old harvested?
Thanks,
Mr. German
Just when you think this story is sinking into the abyss by the weight of it's own foolishness, it makes a right turn into stupidity.
More importantly is the question "have these people who are claiming 9 pairs (or whatever) got documentation?"
I'm very much a skeptic (in large part due to the horrendous job done by Cornell), but I think we should hold back on most comments about rumors.
As far as I can tell, nobody with first-hand knowledge has presented anything publicly. When (if?) they do, any evidence provided can be reviewed at that time. No need to jump the gun by trying to analyze third-hand yammerings.
A few houses and a highway don't make it LESS likely that the records could possibly be correct!
That's because the likelihood of a living ivory-billed woodpecker in 2006 is precisely equal to the likelihood of a living dodo or Great Auk.
Let's see the evidence!
The most important evidence that you need to see are the statements of the authors of the Science paper and others who claim to have seen the bird. Add it all up and the conclusion is obvious, unless you're blind.
Is the USA a first-world country with thousands of expert birders and millions of people with cameras and some interest in birds? Or are we like certain third-world countries in our inability to document our species in a timely fashion? The IBWO could persist for decades without being detected only if southerners are truly incompetent at documenting their avifauna. For such a large, conspicuous, and very easily identified bird to go undetected for so long would be unthinkable in Europe or anywhere else with reasonable coverage by numerous skilled birders. It would have been highly embarrassing to American birders if the IBWO had been genuinely rediscovered, as this would demonstrate a pathetic, long-term neglect of natural history by southerners. How is it that worldtwitchers succeed in regularly finding and photographing cryptic species such as rails, antpittas, and petrels, many of which are highly endangered and genuinely difficult to identify, in far more remote places throughout the world, but Americans can't document one of the most obvious of all birds in our own South for decades?
Mr German,
You have the mistaken perspective that many have on the extent of logging in America. This is understandable. You are using 20th century economics to evaluate 19th century efforts.
In the era of no chain saws, they used horse/mule, steam draglines, small gage railroad, etc. to remove trees (yes,clearcut) in the deepest darkest swamps. It was cheaper than importing it from Maine!
Think of it this way. They had lots of time and energy and a gigantic growing nation to feed.
This is the story that few know. It's why anti-enviros can say there are more trees now than at the turn of the century and before.
Well, yeah, but not more old growth. The IBWO didn't stand a chance.
Dark Matter man.
hahahahaha.
Love it!
...but Americans can't document one of the most obvious of all birds in our own South for decades?
Because it's extinct, stupid!
Interesting news:
(Sept. 18 2006, API) At a Florida WalMart in Choctawhatchee County, an SUV was observed parked between two cement dividers in such a way that observers could not figure out how it could possibly have been squeezed into the spot.
"I've done a lot of 3-point turns to get in a tight spot," said store manager Albert Margles, "and even a couple ten point turns where it was really tight. But I simply can not imagine how that car was parked into that spot."
The SUV, a red 2004 Chevrolet Valdez, was unscratched. There were no license plates on the vehicle, and the police who searched the car could not find a vehicle registration.
Among the fascinated onlookers was Bruce Carson, a self-identified bird watcher.
"There are reports of a population of ivory-billed woodpeckers in the area," said Mr. Carson. "And now this fantastic parking job for which we have no explanation at present. A coincidence?"
If anyone has information about the owner of the SUV, they are advised to contact the Choctawhatchee County police or Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology.
News Alert.
The town of Brinkley, Ark is moving to Redbay, Fl.
Does anyone know if there are motels in Redbay, Florida? Where the heck are all these birders going to stay?
And has anybody notified Redbay of the impending invasion?
Ok, all birders are staying down the road off I10 at DeFuniak Springs. Unless you want to stray into the farther-away Panama Beach and fight the endless traffic.
This appears to be the headquarters of the effort. Redbay is really not a town. Just an incorporated spot in the road.
Word is that the Feds are confused and not clued in completely on what's happening. So access is available.
"Is the USA a first-world country with thousands of expert birders and millions of people with cameras and some interest in birds?"
Yes, but your approach to birding as a nation is so fundamentally flawed that even in the 21st century you still lack a good fieldguide! The Sibley guide? Don't make me laugh!!! Check out Svensson, Mullarney, Zetterstrom, or Lars Jonnson, or the Ridgely/Tudor Ecuador guide, or Grimmett, Inskipp, Inskipp, or...
No wonder you've created a birding nation infested with balls of string left, right and centre when your own "expert" birders barely even know what your birds look like!
And all of your great birders have always gone away to explore South America as soon as they could to get away from the rest of you! They're still doing it to this day.
:-)
Nevermind Ivory-bill Skeptic, I think the rest of the birding world is now rapidly becoming Usa-birding Skeptics.
Hugs and kisses,
xx
Saying all of that, I very much enjoyed my trips to Texas and Arizona a few years ago. Can't wait to go back again some time.
No wonder you've created a birding nation infested with balls of string left, right and centre when your own "expert" birders barely even know what your birds look like!
Yes, but we have the world's biggest ball of string. Have you seen that? That's got to be worth something, right?
The actual situation here is that this is a huge country, and the American South is an enormous region (about 2000 km from Richmond, Virginia to Houston, Texas). Birders are very highly clumped in the cities and suburbs, being scarce to nonexistent in many rural areas. So, no, we don't actually know our avifauna and its distribution and patterns of change all that well. Add to this the average American birder's seeming antipathy to keeping good field notes, reporting observations, or conducting even vaguely systematic and roughly quantitative surveys, and we are left with many, many unknowns even now in the 21st Century. Hell, most States had to work their elbows off to get barely 1/6th or sometimes only 1/12th of their breeding bird atlas blocks minimally surveyed, and some States (incuding California) haven't even attempted a statewide Atlas yet.
The actual situation here is that there is no old-growth forest for the IBWO to have survived.
That's why it went extinct.
Tom,
This new IBWO "rediscovery" is very very close to a very controversial St. Joe co. airport that they are trying to get built.
Just wondering?!
http://www.sptimes.com/2002/04/21/State/
Florida_s_Great_North.shtml
click on the map to get a real good overview of this project
....the map shows the Choctawhatchee river and the "IBWOs" practically next to the proposed controversial airport.
the map shows the Choctawhatchee river and the "IBWOs" practically next to the proposed controversial airport.
Gives a whole new meaning to "Roaring Cutoff," doesn't it?
Yes, but we have the world's biggest ball of string. Have you seen that? That's got to be worth something, right?
Kitten Mecca.
Wew! Nine more pairs down in Chocktawatchee! Fire up the Suburban! This Ivory-bill bidness is really heatin' up!
Let's get some Bad Southern Birders down there quick! Before them dern worldtwitchers show up...
"Just when you think this story is sinking into the abyss by the weight of it's own foolishness, it makes a right turn into stupidity."
There are no stupid questions, just stupid answers...
And all the answers (I found) of the skeptics to the TBs' hypothesis that some remote small forest might have remained to support single breeding pairs were downright stupid and entirely unconvincing.
The first person EVER (I read of) to tackle this issue in a rational and profound way was the "forester" which I thought was finally an interesting approach.
So I see that the clear cut was massive and complete. But if one really wants to sink this story into the abyss, one needs to take into account that trees regrow. If IBWOs might potentially survive in - say - 50 to 70 year old forests (I said survive, not flourish), we have to see if all the southern Forests were clear cut so simultaneously that at no point in time there was a regrown stand of trees around 50 years old and large enough to support a pair of IBWOs anywhere in the former range of the species. If e.g. some forests south of the Singer Trackt were clear cut in the 1890ies, they would have regrown by the 1940ies to potentially support those IBWOs that were forced out of the Singer Trackt by the timber companies.
So yet another annoying question:
Do we know how simultaneously the forests vanished and can we exclude that there were small pockets of regrown forests large enough and old enough to allow IBWOs to survive?
If we can't, then the argument that IBWOs cannot possibly be around today because all the virgin Forests were clear cut won't be useful.
This might annoy those skeptics who "know for sure" but I thought it might contribute to more interesting discussions than all the recent complaining and mockery that leads nowhere (and the TB pages have lately become somewhat "uninformative" as well with nothing new to debate)
Truly heartfelt smelly blather from...
Mr. German
"Do we know how simultaneously the forests vanished and can we exclude that there were small pockets of regrown forests large enough and old enough to allow IBWOs to survive?"
Answer: Completely, utterly, profoundly gone. Without hope gone. 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
That kind of gone.
Is the USA a first-world country with thousands of expert birders ?
Answer = NO WAY
Is the USA a first-world country with hundreds of expert birders ?
Answer = Probably not - depends what you mean by "expert".
Is the USA a first-world country with tens of expert birders ?
Answer = Yes
Nevertheless I do not see this as support for the idea that IBWOs are out there but birders are too crap to find them - that would be getting very ... Fishcrowy.
Apparently some contributors to this blog don't understand irony, rhetorical questions, or use of conditional verb forms.
Apparently some contributors to this forum don't understand plain english ...
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